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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 10 July 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 231

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Corn Dogs?
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226
         3. Re: The Iridium Standard
         4. Re: Savannah, Navaids, Hand Comps, Money
         5. Correction...
         6. Re: surgical strike force
         7. Big rocks again
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226
         9. Re: The Iridium Standard
        10. RE: The Iridium Standard 
        11. Re: Corn Dogs
        12. Re: surgical strike force
        13. Re: surgical strike force
        14. Re: Corn Dogs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:53:15 PST
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs?

In somewhere mysterious you write:

> Harold D. Hale wrote:
>
>> 
>>  The Hivers apparently that it would be very humorous if they took some
>>larvae (or whatever they really were) that looked and tasted like a corn
>>dog and past it off on their unsuspecting human hosts as the real thing.
>
> Actually the Hiver Corndog is a parasitic worm that through pure 
> conicidence when prepared looks just like a corndog.  A number of human's 
> ate the things and when the Hiver's explained what they were, well you 
> can guess the natural result.

It's no sillier than the foods of a lot of human cultures. I'm told
witchety(sp) grubs are delicious. Ditto for well aged eggs, and guinea
pig. But I'd rather not be told what I'm eating until *after* I've
tasted it.

BTW, the Chinese consider cheese to be "rotten milk". So be careful
about your food prejudices.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:21:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226

Andrew Boulton writes:

>Presumably he was referring to the reputation the US armed forces
>have.  They tend to be seen as over-zealous, with a fondness for
>excessive violence.

   Who to blame: U.S. Grant, Phil Sheridan, but most of all, Clausewitz,
who's writings on how to conduct warfare were studied extensively
by the two aforementioned gentlemen.

   Americans believe that by acting swiftly and violently, you actually
save the lives of many of your soldiers who otherwise would become
victims of a war of attrition.

>> The US military, largely thanks to an uninformed and occasionally
>>biased media,  seems to have gotten this reputation in a larger way
>>than other
>>militaries.   This is patently false.

   I think if there seems to be a bias, it is because you have people who
are patently ignorant about a subject, trying to report it from a
perspective that they think people back home can understand.  Imagine
a hard news reporter trying to write a review of a play at the local
theatre, or trying to cover a horse backriding event.  I don't recall seeing
an on-camera reporter who didn't look or sound as though they were
totally out of their element while they were doing their bit for the camera
from the airbase/ship/war zone/front/etc.

   For truly biased reporting, you have to look at 60 Minutes, or other
``so-called`` weekly electronic news magazine type programs.  I no
longer watch 60 Minutes, but if you believed them, the M-1 main battle
tank was a piece of crap (it turned out to be the best tank in the world,
perhaps the best tank ever), and the Bradley Fighting Vehicle was a
death trap (again, wrong).

>Very true. However, it's also true that the US military caused as many
>Coalition causalties as the Iraqis.

   You're missing the point.  It wasn't that the number of ``friendly fire``
incidents were that high, it was that the number of causalties the Iraqis
could inflict on US and Coalition troops were so low.

  And if we're going to do a body count, let's count the number of
Coalition (and Iraqi) troops that are still alive today because the war was
brought to a swift and decisive end by Schwarzkopf (American
general), and not allowed to drag out month after bloody month.

   I'd follow-up by giving everyone a complete analysis of Operation
Market-Garden by way of contrast, but I sense the total boredom some
of you are now feeling and will conclude the Military Science lecture for
today.

Regards,

Harold



------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:29:46 GMT
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Jul 09, 1996 17:45:43, 'Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>'
wrote: 
 
>Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> wrote: 
> 
>>So, a compramise must be reached. We know that Cleon and his successors  
>>got a kick out of Iridium, so why not make  the Imperial Credit = 1 gram 

>>of Iridium? 
> 
>Well, I could get out my economics book and give you the technical reasons

>why most countries are off the gold standard, but.... 
 
Once you wade through the technical hand-waving, the REAL reason 
most countries are off the gold standard is so that they can rob 
the populace through inflation and deficit spending. 
 
                      --Cynthia 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:44:38 GMT
Subject: Re: Savannah, Navaids, Hand Comps, Money

On Jul 10, 1996 00:48:52, 'David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>'
wrote: 
 
>5. Re: Humour 
> 
>>The characters may have to deal with some worlds that are in the midst of

>>a pneumonic plague or somesuch...  
> 
>Do you mean a mnemonic plague (causing loss of literacy - see that 
>thread), or a pneumatic plague (where people keep blowing up)?  
 
No, I imagine he means "pneumonic plague", the extremely 
contagious respiratory-infecting variant of The Plague (the 
ever popular "Pastuerella pestis", repeat engagements throughout 
the Middle Ages, opening act "Dying black rats"...) 
 
There are three known forms of plague, in order of increasing 
rarity and lethality: bubonic, pneumonic, septicemic. Bubonic 
plague is named for the black swellings, or "buboes" that are its 
classic symptom.  This form is spread by flea bite only.  
Pneumonic plague is respiratory infection, and is an airborne 
contagion--if you cough, you spread it around.  Septicemic 
plague attacks the bloodstream, IIRC, and is lethal very fast. 
I don't know about contagion with this variant.  All caused by 
Pasturella pestis, and IIRC, an individual can manifest a 
different form of the disease than the one he was infected by. 
 
Aren't you glad to know all this?  
 
                      --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"O Grave, where is thy victory? Death, where is thy sting?" 
                                                --Alexander Pope 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:38:40 -0400
Subject: Correction...

Recently, someone posted values for how much energy a 10g wing nut would
have at 35km/s. I thought the numbers looked *way* too high, but only had
the "5km/s equals the equivalent weight in TNT" *rule of thumb* to go by.
I finally looked it up, and here are the numbers:

o 1 ton tnt = 4.173e+9 joules = 4173MJ
o 10g wing nut at 35km/s = 6.125MJ kinetic energy (KE) (this was correct)
o 6.125MJ = 0.00147 tons TNT = 1.47 kg TNT

I think the numbers given were in tons (or was it megatons?) of TNT,
rather than 1.47 kg (just over 3 lb). A 500 ton (metric mass) ship would
be equivalent to a little over 73 kilotons of TNT (about 3e8 MJ) at that
speed (try it--KE=0.5mv**2). At 0.1c (30000 km/s), the ship's KE is over
2.25e14 MJ (54 gigatons TNT), but let's not bring that up again! :-) :-)

The rule of thumb seems to be off by a factor of 3--I guess meteors at
that speed tend to be 2/3 gone by the time they hit dirt. For those of
you playing around with anti-matter bombs, note that if 1 kg of matter
were *completely* converted to energy (i.e., E=mc**2), it would produce
9e10 MJ (just under 22 megatons of TNT),

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-



------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:50:14 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: surgical strike force

Dear Folks -

>To quote someone who's name I won't mention, "Can't we just get along?" 

No problem, Eris, I agree.

I still have an interesting q that arose from this: in your opinions, 
what does a high-tech surgical strike team consist of? Is it:
- - a bunch of guys in battledress (a la _Starship Troopers_);
- - an elite infantry commando (to take out Navarre, for eg.);
- - an elite mech infantry force, that glides in using grav APC's, busts up 
the target, and glides out again?

Are there other options?

Also, I've noticed that the US government is concerned 
that the smart weapons from the Gulf War may have been more expensive 
than their targets (although are the factoring in the benefit of making 
their ground forces safer??). Is the economic line a major factor when 
weighing what forces to use against what targets?

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:05:42 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Big rocks again

Leonard Erickson repeats the old arguments:
>
>This means you get *more* heat into the atmosphere. That's *bad*.
>
>[Stopping a big rock is _very_ difficult.]
>
>If the rock was aimed for a land target, and was big enough to be more
>than just a nuclear bomb equivalent, the *last* thing you want to do is
>fragment it. You might get some sea strikes. 
> 
>If it was aimed for an ocean, you are pretty much screwed unless you
>can make most of it *miss* the planet.

As far as I can see there's no way you can solve this problem if you stick
to Real Science. Fortunately I've never been too hung up on Real Science.
It's a nice thing in its place, because it helps create consistency in
your game (and consistency is something I consider _very_ important). But
if sticking to reality is going to mess up my game, sod reality. And
really, with what I hear on the radio each morning about the bevaviour of
some of my fellow human beings, I'd sooner believe in some Unreal Physics
than believe that "Well, people just don't do that sort of thing...". My own
suggestion would be to retroactively invent some TL 11-12 force field that 
(Rubber Science alert!) used sub-space (the underlying whatsit that thruster
plates "thrusts" against, you know) as a heat sink. Make it so expensive
that only high-population worlds can afford it. This has the added 
benefit of cutting their much too big naval budgets down to a managable size.
Perhaps down o a level where they fit in with what we've been told about
the sizes of various navies.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:11:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226

On Jul 10, 1996 09:21:46, '"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>'
wrote: 
 
>Andrew Boulton writes: 
 
>>Very true. However, it's also true that the US military caused as many 
>>Coalition causalties as the Iraqis. 
> 
>You're missing the point.  It wasn't that the number of ``friendly fire`` 
>incidents were that high, it was that the number of causalties the Iraqis 
>could inflict on US and Coalition troops were so low. 
 
All wars have "friendly fire" incidents.  The Gulf War ones stood 
out because there were so few casualties caused by enemy fire. 
Face it, you're in a environment where people are running around 
with loaded weapons and shooting them at each other!  War zones 
are dangerous places to be. 
 
>And if we're going to do a body count, let's count the number of 
>Coalition (and Iraqi) troops that are still alive today because the war
was 
>brought to a swift and decisive end by Schwarzkopf (American 
>general), and not allowed to drag out month after bloody month. 
> 
>I'd follow-up by giving everyone a complete analysis of Operation 
>Market-Garden by way of contrast, but I sense the total boredom some 
>of you are now feeling and will conclude the Military Science lecture for 
>today. 
 
Well, my husband keeps quoting pieces of "A Bridge Too Far" by  
Cornelius Ryan at me as he re-reads it, so I don't think I need 
the review.  I'm sorry, but they should've let Patton run things, 
or Bradley, but not Monty.  That man got so many people killed 
UNNECESSARILY through his screw-ups! 
 
                         --Cynthia 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:28:11 -0500
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

>
>IMHO, the Imperium is based on three empires, two of which are fictional.
>1) the Roman Empire, was established in a blaze of glory, then took 1000
>years to completely collapse. They too had communication problems (which
>they solved by roads), and they too had a currency based on the gold
>standard (which was easier then, as mercantile science was just passing
>the barter stage).

Well, Rome actually stumbled into empire, first struggling for survival
against the Italian city-states, then against the last of the Greek
successors nearby, then against the Carthaginians, then the Gauls,
then...well, everyone else. (Sure, this is simplified. But you get the
idea). In this respect, I saw Rome as more of an Asimovian Foundation than
Empire. :-)

Up to the middle of the second century AD, the Roman state was still plenty
strong. The collapse of the Western empire took three centuries following
that. The Eastern half still had glory days up until the middle of the 11th
century (the Nikephorian Byzantine army was perhaps the finest of the time,
and is VERY underated by non-historians).


>2) Asimov's Impirium. The Trantor Empire was barely touched on by Asimov
>himself, using its rise and collapse as a plot device to tell his story.


When Traveller first came out, I certainly based my campaigns on the Asimov
Empire. Well, that and the Star Wars one, of course. As more info came out
in the JTAS and (in particular) the Fifth Frontier War era of publications,
it became clearer that this was not the case. With a relatively benevolent
Imperium, I found adventures harder to come by.

John Kovalic





******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:28:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: The Iridium Standard 

In Reply to Your Message of Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02: 46:37 MDT
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:28:43 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: That's just it, there really *aren't* other large economies that the
: Imperium trades with.  Before it tore itself apart it was the 500
: pound gorilla in this end of the galaxy.

But the whole point of the Imperium was to protect the member states
from the turban-heads, toons, doggies, ponies, and starfish.  You could
argue that the Imperium may have set guidelines for trading with their
neighbors, but I think that's the main point of the Imperium is that of
a  unifying force that protects the members that support it.

: >The reason for this is also quite simple.  You start withn 11 worlds
: >and then work your way up to 11,000.  That's a lot of iridium that
: >you'll have to find.  8)
: 
: Isn't rarity one of the requisites for currency? <g>

Rarity of a commodity that can be traded is the dictionary definition of
money.  The economic one simply states that it has to be regulatable and
widely acceptable.  Hence the reason little green pieces of paper with
dead mens' faces have value.

: >: Folks, if you want to know the truth, I doubt an empire the size of
: >: the Imperium could be put together and endure very long. 
: 
: >Yeah, but then it wouldn't be such a fun game if we didn't suspend
: >our disbelief just a little.
: 
: I've always had more fun when I divide an area up into smaller
: governing groups, and let them compete.  This doesn't necessarily mean
: military competition, economic competition is just as good..gamewise.

But that's exactly what Traveller does.  Look at how the Marches get
picked on for being "backwater?"  What about Margaret's domain where she
was looking at expanding trade into regions not in the Imperium?  Or how
about the Aslan (they really must get better real-estate agents)?

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:00:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

>From: gdw.support@genie.com
>Subject: [none]
>Derek Stanley wrote:
>
>>> Harold Hale Wrote:
>>>  The Hivers apparently that it would be very humorous if they took some
>>>larvae (or whatever they really were) that looked and tasted like a corn
>>>dog and past it off on their unsuspecting human hosts as the real thing.
>>
>>Actually the Hiver Corndog is a parasitic worm that through pure
>>conicidence when prepared looks just like a corndog.  A number of human's
>>ate the things and when the Hiver's explained what they were, well you
>>can guess the natural result.
>
>Hmmm...when I asked Dave, he said that the consumables in question were
>something akin to roasted sea cucumbers (actually, compared to what the
>Hivers normally eat, this is rather appetizing). Did he change his mind?
>
>LKW

Gee, once again Loren saves the day.  No, to answer Loren's question, Dave
didn't change his mind.  The Hiver "corndog" is a sea cucumber used as food.
I don't know where all these other ideas come from, but the sea cucumber
idea is from Sneaks and Geeks.  The reference to "corndogs" in SM is from
the Hivers tour of Diaspora before the collapse.  The Hiver had some food
they were served that they brought with them and when the humans saw it they
thought they were "corndogs."  At one of the next stops on the Hiver Tour,
the humans prepared some real corndogs for the Hiver which, when they ate,
made them very ill.  Apologies were offered all around and the Hiver
explained the true nature of their "corndog" and, well, you can immagine how
the humans that had eaten some of them felt!

This brings me to another point, though.  I've been reading a number of
complaints about the "corndog" joke that ruined an already bad alien module,
namely Hiver & Ithklur.  Then I read the few posts of the "experts"
explaining the "corndog" issue to others.  I personally enjoyed Hiver &
Ithklur very much.  I don't have any DGP material to compare it with, so I
can't comment on the comparison, but I can comment on H&I.  I get a little
irritated at people who discount a plot device (Virus) or a book (H&I) or
anything else without really understanding what they are talking about.  It
amazed me how few people knew the subtleties of Virus as illuminated in SM,
and again I am amazed at how few people understand the "corndog" issue that
they complain about.  H&I presented the life of both Hiver and Ithklur.
"Corndogs" are a part of that life.  Life is funny if you know where to
look.  I think some people just take this game a bit too seriously.  If I
took the game too seriously, I would see H&I as a slap in the face, but that
is not at all how it is intended!  The hiver were designed to be mysterious
and untrustworthy, and yet they are the very ones humanity must trust in to
help it back to the stars.  I find this incredible, and very realistic.  I
don't think the Hiver section is intended to be chocked full of jokes, but
the distruse of the person writing the comments is humourous at times, but
just think about the comments he makes.  They Make a lot of sense!!!  The
Ithklur section is a funny section.  I think the ithklur are there to
provide a bit of humor if it is needed.  Not all Ithklur are going to be
exactly as detailed in the book, but I find nothing in the book impossible
or even improbable.  I think Dave did an excellent job on this work, and
just because some people take the game too seriously, they are offended by
the humor that is there.  Sorry, but this is a childish reaction.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not intending to imply anything about the
issue of cannon.  I just am referring to H&I as a part of the TNE library.
I have very little MT material and even less CT material (not choice, just
devine intervention) so I con't really comment on the "cannon" issue.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:10:34 -0700
Subject: Re: surgical strike force

David Jaques-Watson wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> >To quote someone who's name I won't mention, "Can't we just get along?"
> 
> No problem, Eris, I agree.
> 
>I still have an interesting q that arose from this: in your opinions,
>what does a high-tech surgical strike team consist of? Is it:
>- a bunch of guys in battledress (a la _Starship Troopers_);
>- an elite infantry commando (to take out Navarre, for eg.);
>- an elite mech infantry force, that glides in using grav APC's, busts 
>up the target, and glides out again?
> 
> Are there other options?

I always though a Surgical Strike Team, was a bunch of guys with 
scalpels, masks and ether.  8)

hahahahahahhahahahahahaha!!!!!!

Sorry sorry.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:13:07 -0700
Subject: Re: surgical strike force

David Jaques-Watson wrote:
> 
>I still have an interesting q that arose from this: in your opinions,
>what does a high-tech surgical strike team consist of? Is it:
>-a bunch of guys in battledress (a la _Starship Troopers_);
>-an elite infantry commando (to take out Navarre, for eg.);
>-an elite mech infantry force, that glides in using grav APC's, busts up
> the target, and glides out again?
> 
> Are there other options?
> Honestly I've never considered the Marines (bunch of guy's in 
battledress) a surgical strike team.  No offence to any Marine's out 
there.  The Marines are an elite beachhead assault force who's primary 
focus in traveller is ship board duties including boarding actions and 
primary DZ securing.  Along with this you could potentially throw in 
pacification campaigns.  Not wanting to start the flame war again but the 
Marine's are the Imperium's "Big Stick" of ground combat.

I feel that a surgical strike team is probably best exemplified by your 
second example.  Commando's.  These are guy's who get in, get out and no 
one know's they've been there untill the powerplant or whatever explodes. 
 In TNE these guys are known as Special Forces, the Surgical Strike team 
would be point laser designators infiltrated on a planet months before 
the strike occured, these would be the guy's in charage of insuring that 
"Mortimer Crane, Supreme Dictator of Gault and Generalisimo for life" has 
an unfortunate accident on his way to the prom.  I think the main point 
of a surgical strike team is if they can get in and get out without 
firing a shot they've done their job correctly, if they get into a fire 
fight they've screwed it up royally.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:31:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

Paul Walker wrote:

>>Hmmm...when I asked Dave, he said that the consumables in question 
>>were something akin to roasted sea cucumbers (actually, compared to 
>>what the Hivers normally eat, this is rather appetizing). Did he 
>>change his mind?
>>
>>LKW
> 
>Gee, once again Loren saves the day.  No, to answer Loren's question, 
>Dave didn't change his mind.  The Hiver "corndog" is a sea cucumber 
>used as food.  I don't know where all these other ideas come from, but 
>the sea cucumber idea is from Sneaks and Geeks.  The reference to 
>"corndogs" in SM is from the Hivers tour of Diaspora before the 
>collapse.  The Hiver had some food they were served that they brought 
>with them and when the humans saw it they thought they were "corndogs." 
>At one of the next stops on the Hiver Tour, the humans prepared some 
>real corndogs for the Hiver which, when they ate, made them very ill.  
>Apologies were offered all around and the Hiver explained the true 
>nature of their "corndog" and, well, you can immagine how
>the humans that had eaten some of them felt!
> I'm sorry if I confused some people I don't own a copy of "Sneaks and 
Geeks" so I'm quoting directly out of the TNE novel "To Dream of Chaos."

The doctor has just eaten a corn dog and things that the Hiver's were 
pretty inventive for putting cheese inside the dog.

"Did you enjoy it?"
"Yes, I did, thank you."
"How surprising.  Most humans profess to find them disgusting."
"What's in them?"
"Nothing toxic, I assure you.  It is simply a variety of parastic 
segmented worm, much like your terran leeches, batter-dipped and fried."
"Ungh."

Well the conversation goes on from there to describe the life cycle of 
the worm etc.  Its on pages 77-78 for those of you who are interested.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #231
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